I haven't posted in so long! Have some Wonder Woman thoughts!

[frayadjacent]

DW, I have been reading you and commenting a little but oh so very slack on posting. I might pick up that TV Meme again, just to get me back in the habit.

But first: I finished some more Wonder Woman! Thanks to chaila I have now read all of Rucka's run, all of Simone's run, and two books: The Hiketeia, which I already discussed, and A League of One.

I liked them, mostly! I am not overwhelmed by Diana feels and am pretty happy to end it here, unless there are more comics that people think I would enjoy. But they were good and I enjoyed reading them, and last night I went back through and read some of chaila's old DW posts about those parts of Wonder Woman, which enhanced my appreciation, especially for Mission's End.

First of all, I think I'll never be able to totally, 100% click with the stories when they still have so much pro-US bias. I mean, I'm guessing that the Diana comics (or at least the ones I read) are far better than a lot of Justice League books on this matter, and obviously a lot better than older Wonder Woman stories? Diana did make effort to show that she's not an American, and the Amazons' refusal to sign a treaty with the US was pretty badass.

But still, when she's hunting down war criminals in unnamed African countries while schmoozing with US Presidential staff in comics that were published within a year or two of the US invasion of Iraq, I just...I just can't not see that as glaringly hypocritical, and it makes it really hard for me to see her character the way I'm supposed to see her. And I *want* to see her that way, and I *know* that there's no way that these comics are gonna come out against the US government that much, I can totally look at it from a Doylist perspective...but at some point the Watsonian perspective is also affected. Which frustrates me, because I <3 <3 <3 characters with strong moral principles who will fight fiercely for them, who are also complex and interesting. I LOVE when writers don't let good = boring, and Wonder Woman is all about that! 

It's weird, because I don't expect to see my politics reflected in stories I read or watch, and I don't quite understand why it is that some stories' political problems affect my enjoyment more than others...I guess in this case it's because the political problems felt so fundamental to what Diana's character is supposed to be about. Or maybe because right now I'm really upset about Israeli apartheid (and US support for same) and police brutality in the US, and feeling less forgiving of my media because of it. And I also probably would have had an easier time getting past that stuff if the stories had just spent more time on character interactions, which tend to be the backbone of my devotion to any series or characters.

All in all I probably liked Rucka's run a bit more, because I really enjoyed the relationships and camraderie between Diana and her staff, and likewise between her and the rest of the Amazons. Little details like Diana hating cilantro were very fun. The Medousa arc was great, really heartwrenching and intense and beautiful. But I also really wanted more. More character interaction, more time getting to know everyone. I would have loved to have more flashbacks like they did with her and Karl, but with other characters as well. 

Predictably I adored Io because butch! With a hint of sidekick! Practically my kryptonite. I would probably happily read whole arcs the lengths of Rucka and Simone's runs together that are just Diana and Io and Phillipus and Hippolyta and whoever hanging out and sparring and swimming and iron-working and composing epic tales and whatever else it is they do when horrible things aren't happening to them. I was very sad to not see Io in Simone's run.

However I really admired how Simone's run felt like one very coherent, and very epic, story. But it was sad to me that, even though it was a lot more about the Amazons than Rucka's run, it focused so much on conflict among the Amazons without a lot of positive stuff to make me feel invested in the maintenance of their society. Speaking of, I did really like how it brought out the differences among the Amazons in their reactions to Diana's birth. Like not everyone feels the same about Diana. However, I have to ask, because nothing I've read so far has explained this at all: *how* did Diana save the Amazons? It must have something to do with her mission and how she became an ambassador?

I didn't like Tom (I think that was his name? the guy Diana courted) much, but I DID like how Diana courted him. It left me with a strong desire to read/watch more stories where a woman courts someone with Big Romantic (possibly misguided) Gestures.

Also it was amusing to me how hyperbolic Simone's Diana could be. Every person that she was with was the best possible person to be around at the time! Everyone was her best friend, her most beloved sister, etc. Every fight was the worst ever. It was super endearing.

I read A League of One last night, and OMG, I usually really, like teeth-gritting-annoyed, fucking hate when characters go off and do something on their own and keep people from helping them for their own good (I mean I hate For Your Own Good stories more broadly than that), but I somehow *adored* Diana doing it. I guess because she was really serious about it, it wasn't something she did lightly, and it wasn't something she'd do often. And also I usually see male characters doing it (this is the number one reason why I dislike Angel the character, not in a "he's poorly written" way, but in a "he's a jackass and pisses me off" way) and so seeing Diana do it to a bunch of male (or mostly male, I'm not sure about the gender of all of JLA) characters was kinda satisfying. Plus the art was pretty.

Comments

[sanguinity]

Io. I have such huge Io feelings. And had a hard time with her not being in Simone's run, I really did.

[frayadjacent]

Io was so great! And her anger at Ares kidnapping the girl, and her resolution not to make the weapon, and then her decision to make it...it was great stuff.

[lilacsigil]

I had exactly the same feelings about A League of One! Maybe because Diana is so pro-teamwork usually (especially mentoring) that for her to go off by herself to save the others felt really important. And all the male heroes had perfectly good abilities on or nearly on her level, so it wasn't like Angel where they do teamwork until suddenly the Really Important Stuff happens and it's all about Angel alooooooone.

[frayadjacent]

Yes, exactly! That's a great way to put it.

[beccatoria]

DIANA! :D It's cool to read your thoughts about it. I understand your points about the political underpinnings. A lot of people rec Spirit of Truth as one of the seminal Diana stories that everyone should read, but I loathe it because it's basically full of well-meaning white-lady racism and condescension (as well as, I think, a fundamental misunderstanding of her character - there's a weird strand of "Diana doesn't understand humans, she's so naive," that I...don't agree with.)

It's actually better, on this specific point, I think, in the New 52 reboot. Diana lives in London now, and in her own comic has had nothing to do with the US at all. Or really to do with the UK, she's been stuck in a much more mythologically oriented storyline. But I do find it interesting they've finally moved her base of operations officially away from America (though not the West in general). That said, she is, of course, still running around with the Justice League in other comics, which is still largely US-based and the whole thing is written by US-authors. Which really I think is where a lot of the problem comes from. Forgetting to actually examine how that perspective affects the character. She's not supposed to be American but she's very infrequently written as non-American.

(Note: While I think this specific aspect is improved in the New 52, I don't particularly recommend reading it if you're not finding yourself as an enormous fan. I like it a lot more than most people, but it's...got a different set of problems and does some dodgy shit with the Amazons.)

Supporting characters! Yeah, welcome to the next problem with Diana comics. She has a real problem when it comes to retaining a stable supporting cast. Successive writers tend to wipe the slate clean and give her a whole new group of people. This is a problem all characters have to an extend, but Wonder Woman has it way worse than, say, Superman or Batman, where their supporting casts are more iconic. It's very frustrating.

Regarding how Diana saved the Amazons, I'm pretty sure that's not literal? I think it's a reference to her as their collective daughter. Like saving them socially and spiritually? I could be wrong though because...comics man. SO MANY I HAVEN'T READ.

Finally - the whole "loner saving everyone alone because angst" - OH GOD I AGREE SO MUCH. Basically one thing I've discovered is that I adore all the manly, angsty, stupid tropes I usually loathe when they give them to Diana. I think it's the combination of the gender subversion - because they play those tropes totally straight - and partly because the character herself is so embedded in my mind as sincere and thoughtful, that it doesn't come across as being as selfish as it often does. Like if Batman did what she did in the League of One, I'd be all, "FFS, Batman, stop making it all about you..." because I inherently distrust his motivations. But I feel like I believe in Wonder Woman's character enough that she can do stuff like this and it feels considered and heroic. At least, I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, I'm really glad you enjoyed the stories. Even if they aren't hugely your sort of thing, I firmly believe most people's lives can be improved by a passing familiarity with Diana. ;)

[frayadjacent]

there's a weird strand of "Diana doesn't understand humans, she's so naive," that I...don't agree with.

You know, I feel like maybe I recall that coming up a few times in the comics I read too (though I could be misremembering), and yeah, I don't agree with that at all either!

Re: the New 52 comics, I read some of chaila's thoughts on that when she'd first started it, and it sounded like the stuff with Amazons would have upset me! I think the Amazons are overall my favorite part of the WW comics, so it didn't appeal to me.

Regarding how Diana saved the Amazons, I'm pretty sure that's not literal? I think it's a reference to her as their collective daughter. Like saving them socially and spiritually?

Yeah, sorry I wasn't very clear on that -- I figured that's what they meant, but I still don't really get what they're saying. Do they mean that just the fact of having a daughter renewed them socially and spiritually? Or something about who Diana is specifically? What was wrong with them before her birth? I guess I'm fascinated by this question and would love to read some well-written comics that explore it more. Maybe someday!

Very, very well said about League of One. That's exactly how I feel too.

Yes, my life is very much improved by getting to meet Diana! And I think I want to watch the animated film? Speaking of watching, I've been re-watching vids and enjoying them a lot more (and I already liked them before!) so that has been fun.

On further reflection, I think a big part of what I need to get really emotionally invested, like I am with Buffy or Xena, is lots and lots of time with characters. Like, Orphan Black is kind of an outlier in that I've "only" seen 20 episodes and am pretty in-love with Sarah and Felix in particular, but a lot of that has to do with not just their personalities (which I love) but also how rare it is for me to see economically and politically marginalised characters like that, especially in genre television. But for characters like Buffy and Xena, they wormed their way into my heart over the course of lots and lots of seasons and I think that plays a big role in my love for them. I think that Diana's lack of consistent supporting characters probably doesn't help in that regard too. :(

[chaila]

Yes, I find that superhero comics often have hypocrisy built into their very fabric. Which bugs me a lot! With everyone except Diana. It is a very mysterious phenomenon. All comics tropes I hate, I actually love when they give them to Diana.

I totally agree that I always, always want MORE, especially more character interaction and more fallout. And, often, less confusing plot. And I really hate how her supporting cast gets changed so often; I really, really need Io and Ferdinand in more comics. :( I'm not sure what it is about Diana that makes me fill in the gaps myself, though I suspect it has something to do with her mythic nature, the way there are so many different takes on her, and how that gives me some freedom to have *my* version. But mostly I think it is just FEELINGS.

Every person that she was with was the best possible person to be around at the time! Everyone was her best friend, her most beloved sister, etc. Every fight was the worst ever. It was super endearing.

BLESS HER. <33333 Hee. This is what Diana does to me, it is not rational.

*thinks about trying to sell you on Gotham Central* :)

[frayadjacent]

I really, really need Io and Ferdinand in more comics.

YES to this! That would be amazing. Do you know if there are any plans to write more books that are pre/parallel to the reboot (i.e. that could have Io or Ferdinand)? Also I want to go back and re-read The Hiketeia now that I know and love Diana so much more.

I'm not sure what it is about Diana that makes me fill in the gaps myself, though I suspect it has something to do with her mythic nature, the way there are so many different takes on her, and how that gives me some freedom to have *my* version. But mostly I think it is just FEELINGS.

I totally get that! I am not very good at gap-filling (except with The Hunger Games, where I think my head-canon is like 75% of my fannish enthusiasm) but I feel like I'm getting better at it.

Gotham Central is about the trinity, right? I think I could be open to it if Diana is at least as prominent as Superman and Batman (honestly I don't know how much Batman I can stand though; I am surprisingly OK with Superman at least in how he's appeared in Diana's stories). What do you like about it?

oops I guess I still write long comments

[chaila]

Do you know if there are any plans to write more books that are pre/parallel to the reboot (i.e. that could have Io or Ferdinand)

Mostly I think the answer is no. There's always a possibility that a new writer could bring the characters back, but it won't be set pre-reboot; it would be like "rebooting" those characters too, into a new story and new time and possibly with different roles. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. Comics are weird. But the main Wonder Woman book is getting a new writer in November, who will take it the story and world and characters in her own direction. So if she happens to be a fan of Rucka's run, who knows. You can be sure I'll crow about it on Twitter!

BUT this week, a brand new Diana comic started, Sensation Comics, which has a new digital short issue every week, and a new writer and artist for every story. It tells "out of continuity" one-shot stories, i.e. the stories are not connected to each other, and can come from anytime in Diana's history, all the way back to the 40s. For example, the first issue (written by Simone) came out digitally this week and name-dropped Io, though Io did not appear. But, spoilers, some Amazons showed up at the end of the issue, which is continued next week sooooo...Io could be among them. But I wouldn't get too excited, because even if she is, it's a short one-shot and not a continuing story, so there won't be much and the next week it'll be a completely different story by a different writer set at a completely different time. (Which I actually think is really neat as a different kind of book, but it doesn't help us get Io back).

Gotham Central is about the trinity, right?

Not at all! Don't worry, I would never do that to you. :D It actually has no Diana, which is probably what's throwing you off. I WAS CONFUSED TOO. Gotham Central is about the Gotham PD, i.e. the police department in Batman's city, specifically about the "Major Crimes Unit" which deals with any crime supervillain-related, and how they deal with Batman's crossfire and vigilantism. It's like the first season of The Wire and the police department, if you've seen that. Or Homicide: Life on the Street. Batman appears very, very sparingly, often just as a swish of a cape as he disappears, because it is not about him. It is about the people who are the bit players in a Batman comic, and the story from their perspective, which is very, very different than Batman's. Batman is only marginally a "hero" in this book, and many characters do not think he is one at all. I like that the comic totally agrees with me that Batman is often a smug, arrogant, selfish jerk, and cares nothing for his manpain.

The best thing about this book (which has many best things) is Renee Montoya, one of the main characters. She is amazing. Lesbian woman of color, she's like the classic noir hero, skirting the line between maintaining the moral line in a corrupt world, and rolling around in the mud to get the right thing done. The whole comic is quite diverse. Of the "main" cast (it is very much an ensemble) that I can think of, there are two women of color, two white women, two men of color, and maybe two white men. Two of the women are queer. And the stories pay decent attention to things like sexuality and race, usually? Renee has a meaty story about being non-consensually outed at work and to her parents, if that's a thing that would bug you, but it's really well done.

It's also bounded. There are about 40 issues, encompassing multiple arcs of varying lengths, and then it's over. But if you read it, it will gut you, there's no way around it!

Though, as you might imagine, it does contain a lot of background and foreground police corruption and brutality, though these things are shown as systematic problems that are wrong, and things that keep our good guys from being able to clean up Gotham. But it's really quite a complex story about institutions in this world of vigilantism, and the way different people fight against or work within that skewed, corrupt system.

Sorry, that was long! It's a very good comic, a very, very different kind of superhero comic. It's a superhero comic that's about a totally different kind of heroism, the kind without superpowers, the kind that cleans up after superpowers.

The art is GREAT too, the first half is all done by an artist who NEVER, EVER sexualizes the women, ever, and it just feels so safe to read. It slips a little on this later in the run with a new artist, but it's miles above lots of other things. It's also more contemplative than what you'd be used to with Diana's comics; there's lot of dialogue between all the characters, just establishing their styles and interactions, and there's often panels without words, letting things sink in or take a character beat, which can make a huge difference in how the story feels.

I, um, obviously highly recommend it. :)

Re: oops I guess I still write long comments

[frayadjacent]

Sorry for the slow reply!! I've been mostly offline while I'm visiting Seattle! Sooo, Gotham Central sounds like a great comic! But I'm not in a headspace to deal with cop-POV stuff right now, even if it's well made and critical, so I might come back and check it out another time. Thanks for the info, it really does sound great in many ways. :D