Warrior Princess Exchange!

[frayadjacent]

chaila and I recently did a Warrior Princess Exchange: she gave me some Wonder Woman comics to read and I suggested some Xena episodes for her to watch! My Xena suggestions were "One Against an Army" -- an obvious choice, IMO, for the the competence porn and the Xena and Gab being awesome and having an amazing relationship -- and "When Fates Collide". The second one seemed a little counter-intuitive but I still think it was a good choice for chaila, and for showcasing how awesome the characters can be. Also I re-watched the episode for Research and OMG so much fanservice. It was delightful

Chaila gave me The Hiketeia, which I devoured pretty quickly (well, after I figured out how to get Simple Comic to work right). It was a great story with some awesome Wonder Woman action and two great women characters.

I was surprised a little by how Diana claimed she didn't care what Danielle had done, to the point of kinda cutting off the conversation. It was an interesting ethical dilemma where I didn't really agree with anyone. I mean, I am fine with what Danielle did, but only because of the reason why she did it, which Diana claimed to not care about. (Though it seemed like she did care about it, since she was contemplating how she'd have felt if it were her sisters.) But honoring the Hiketeia was the major motivator for her, which I obviously don't identify with but it was pretty interesting nonetheless.

It definitely made me want to read more, and I imagine that if/when I do read more WW, I'll go back to the story and read it with a new level of emotional/intellectual engagement with the characters and stories.

I also thought the art was quite pretty, though I do predictably dislike the way women are drawn. It's not as bad as many comics but the contorted-torso-butt-and-boob poses were definitely there. But I liked how it conveyed the action.

The only thing I really wished was different was that it had spent more time on Diana and Danielle's relationship. I wish I had gotten to see them spending time together, to see how Danielle got good at her job instead of just having Diana tell me. But I wouldn't have wanted that at the expense of anything else, so I'd have wanted the book to be longer. :)

Comments

[beccatoria]

...and now I can make you talk to me about Wonder Woman at VidUKon. ;)

But yeah, I agree with sanguinity; the art in The Hiketeia is not the boobiest art in comics by far (sadly), but it ti worse than the art generally prevalent in Rucka's run.

My reading of Diana cutting off Danielle was not so much that she didn't care, but that she felt she couldn't. Or rather, it would make no difference what her personal feelings - she'd be just as bound to protect Danielle and if she refused, the Furies would intervene. I think that's the emotional "in" I have with the story. Danielle is, in many ways, blackmailing Diana, or at least manipulating her. But it's a manipulation Diana is well aware of. It's one she capitulates to with a fascinating mix of compassion and cool practicality. Like the French Foreign Legion - Danielle breaks that unspoken contract by trying to justify what she's done - by bringing up her past. As if that could ever justify her manipulations (even if it also...does.)

I think I find the story fascinating because Diana does love and accept so much. It's interesting to see her forced to protect someone she might well have chosen to protect otherwise. That's...at least what I took from her statements about not caring. Danielle didn't understand: she'd invoked something so powerful, she could have been a sadistic mass murderer and Diana would have been bound to the same path.

Equally, Batman's inflexibility and lack of compassion is what drives Danielle to that desperate place, and his repeated refusal to compromise at all is ultimately what turns the conflict into something fatal - even though Diana is the one bound by a code that has nothing at all to do with morality.

And yeah - it's very consciously written as a Greek Tragedy in the traditional sense. Most of Diana's stories - even the ones steeped in Greek Myth, don't follow this kind of trajectory. Nor is she usually bound by arcane traditions. I mean, she has respect for them - her polytheism being actually demonstrated is pretty wonderful during Simone's run, for instance? But she also has a habit of defying stupid rules Gods attempt to impose on her and occasionally declaring that if this is how it's gonna be then SHE WILL HAVE NO GODDDDSSSSS and things. Because she's awesome. ;)

(ALSO XENA! I am curious what chaila will make of it... I really need to sit down and rewatch it at some point. It was SUCH a formative part of my childhood but I have also forgotten so much fo it...)

[frayadjacent]

Yes, I'll definitely be up for more WW talk. I was thinking an informal WW/Xena vid party could be fun! Or just Warrior Princess party. (Though I will probably be passed out in my bed from jet lag every evening, lol.)

I really, REALLY like your interpretation. Especially this:

My reading of Diana cutting off Danielle was not so much that she didn't care, but that she felt she couldn't. Or rather, it would make no difference what her personal feelings - she'd be just as bound to protect Danielle and if she refused, the Furies would intervene.

and this:

Equally, Batman's inflexibility and lack of compassion is what drives Danielle to that desperate place, and his repeated refusal to compromise at all is ultimately what turns the conflict into something fatal - even though Diana is the one bound by a code that has nothing at all to do with morality.

So, do you think Diana was actually trying to protect herself by refusing to hear what Danielle had done? I.e., if Danielle had been a mass murderer, it would have been much harder (emotionally) for Diana to protect her?

[beccatoria]

Well I know at least one other person suggested some kind of Diana vid party, and I see no reason to be exclusionary when it comes to warrior princesses... :D

I'm glad what I said made sense. In answer to your question, I guess...yes. I mean, I think it's more complicated than that too, because Diana never, ever runs from difficult truths, and if she thought it was relevant she'd ask without hesitation. But it's not. And I also think it's important to note that after taking Danielle in, she puts her to work and observes her. She takes responsibility for her. It's established that it's extraordinarily difficult to lie to her and she sees to the truth of people, so I don't for a moment doubt that if Danielle had been a dangerous person, Diana would have seen it. Even if that just meant deciding that this was her opportunity to either reform her or ensure she didn't have the opportunity to hurt more people.

So I feel that "it would be easier," is probably unfair to the fortitude of her character, but "it's irrelevant," really gets to the heart of the fact that she frames the situation in a competely different way to Batman?

Her choice to protect Danielle was already circumvented (well it wasn't, because she defies gods and traditions when she chooses to do so, but not without reason and consideration), so listening to Danielle's history as an attempt to justify her actions, like, as an attempt to convince Diana that she's doing the right thing, is irrelevant. Her moral decisions now need to be considered from a different angle.

Telling Danielle that is also a teaching moment. It forces Danielle to confront the truth too (ugh someday I will indulge my desire to go on a giant tangent about Diana and truth symbology but not right now...)

I...hope that makes sense? UGH SO MANY DIANA FEELINGS. ;) <3

[chaila]

so listening to Danielle's history as an attempt to justify her actions, like, as an attempt to convince Diana that she's doing the right thing, is irrelevant. Her moral decisions now need to be considered from a different angle.

Yessss. I mean as much as I missed most of the Greek mythology stuff on the first time through, this is also so true. I think Danielle went to Diana partly because she thought Diana would listen and would agree with Danielle that protecting Danielle was justified, which would be comforting? But instead Diana offers protection on the grounds that Danielle asked for it, where what she did and why becomes irrelevant. In some ways, I think Diana knowing and caring about the history makes the situation actually more emotionally difficult for her, in the end? Like I guess if Danielle had been a cold-hearted mass murderer, Diana would have been more conflicted about protecting her, but it wouldn't have made her act differently once the ritual was invoked, AND it might have been easier in some ways too because she wouldn't have been emotionally involved. She could've stayed coolly practical, bound by the Furies and hiketeia, but not necessarily by her own personal feelings or motivations. Like Diana doesn't do what she does later specifically because she thinks Danielle was justified, but she's devastated by it because she thinks Danielle might have been? The why is supposed to be irrelevant under the ritual, and I think it's easier from both sides--whether Danielle's crimes are worse than she imagines, or more tragic than she imagines--if it remains irrelevant. So like I think it's kind of a protective measure from either angle (which fails, because Diana, self-protection isn't how she actually does anything <333). Which is where I get tangled in my inability to use words to capture all the boundless contradictions that Diana manages to inhabit at the same time.

UGH SO MANY DIANA FEELINGS.

[frayadjacent]

Ahhhh I don't have anything to add right now, but THIS ALL MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. And I like it a lot as a way to understand the story and Diana's choices and reactions. Thanks you two. <3