yup. still boring.

[frayadjacent]

OMG how do people viiiid?????  I am so bored of clipping.  I need a snack, maybe?

In other news, I went on my first run in almost 3 weeks.  Cramps + migraines + sinus infections conspired to get me irrecoverably off the half-marathon training path.  :(  Well, at least I'm running again.

Comments

[sanguinity]

Me, I get bored of clipping, decide I have enough for That One Chunk of the timeline, and then spend the rest of the vidding process being frustrated that I don't have the right clip. :-P

[frayadjacent]

Yes, I've been alternating between editing and clipping. But part of me just wants to get the damn clipping over with so I can edit with everything I need!

[sanguinity]

How do you clip? Sound off, sound on? Going through all the footage, or selected footage? High-speed or 1x? GIMME DETAIL.

[frayadjacent]

Ah, well here's part of the problem. I'm clipping MKVs, which Streamclip, or rather my version of it, doesn't love. So there is no audio because it doesn't work for some reason. And the conversion is very slow, and the computer gets stuck sometimes if I skip around. (I can jump from one section of the episode OK, but skipping around within a scene makes the video freeze momentarily.) High speed isn't an option. All of these things slow me down. Even not having sound, because I'm rewatching as well -- I don't remember the show well enough to clip from memory this way. So I rewatch on VLC, take notes of what scenes to clip, and then open the episode in Streamclip.

But when I've clipped MOV or MP4 files, I guess it depends? If it's a source I know well, like Buffy, I definitely turn off the sound, watch at 2x speed, and skip scenes. When I was clipping for my tightpresent vid (sob!) I watched with audio on and at 1x speed because I wanted to re-watch scenes. But I did skip scenes that weren't relevant to the vid I was planning.

[sanguinity]

Oh, frack, of course that's going to be boring and annoying. If I'm clipping something feature-length, sometimes Streamclip struggles JUST ENOUGH with it that it's a problem to jump around in it, etc., and that always makes clipping more irritating that it had to be.

Yeah, that's about what I do: stuff I'm more familiar with, scan at a higher speed; stuff I'm less familiar with or want to review, watch at 1x with sound on. There usually has to be a sound-off pass of relevant scenes, though, just because the soundtrack sometimes causes my brain to lie about what the footage actually shows. (If that makes sense?)

[frayadjacent]

the soundtrack sometimes causes my brain to lie about what the footage actually shows

Ha ha, yes! Though I've also been guilty of separating the visuals from original context too much. I see a moment and want to use it visually to represent something quite different than what the original scene meant. Sometimes it works, sometimes I think it's just very confusing! It depends on how well-known the scene is, mostly.

[beccatoria]

And this is why I do not clip... Well except for the fact that I've GOT to clip for my current project and its taken over my life. So what I'm mostly here to do is offer sympathy and recommend you avoid the process wherever possible...

[sanguinity]

...how does one avoid clipping?

[frayadjacent]

Well, I guess if you have enough hard drive space, you could load an entire movie into your video editing program?

And if you have PC, you can use AviSynth, which makes virtual clips from your main source file that your video editing software uses. So AviSynth basically tricks your editing program into thinking it's referencing clips, when it's actually referencing the original file. Maybe this can even be done with .VOBs? Not sure, though!

Eh, I just realized this is sort of separate from your question. So obviously I don't know the answer! But I'm guessing it involves AviSynth in some way.

[violace]

*butts in*
I use virtual files for vidding! But that doesn't mean I can avoid clipping - I just do it all right inside Vegas, where I can create folders and subclips and stuff. I guess it's less stressful for me that way, but clipping is still the woooorst part of vidding.

I admire those who can just scrub through their source, pick exactly the clips they need and place them right on the timeline. I'm such a hoarder when it comes to clipping.

[frayadjacent]

Yeah, there's really no way to get around scrubbing through footage to find what you want and need. Being able to combine that with editing probably makes it less painful -- and means you make fewer clips you don't use, I imagine.

Ha ha, I like the image of a vidder jealously guarding all her unneeded clips. "I might use those some day!!" I totally get that. :D

ETA (again): so, you use Vegas. What kind of files can you import? VOBs? MKVs? Do you use AviSynth? Do you run into stability issues with certain codecs or filetypes?

[violace]

"I might use those some day!!"
YUP. Exactly like that. :D

I've never tried importing VOBs. MKVs don't work - that's the file type I get my footage from most of the time, and the main reason I use virtual files.
But it imports the more common file types fine: avi, mp4, mov, etc.

Things can get tricky when you're running 64bit Vegas, which I am - it requires 64bit versions of most codecs to import certain file types (like avi), and it can be difficult to get hold of some of those. There's a workaround, although it probably won't work for future versions of Vegas.

Other than that, I've never had any codec or filetype related issues!

There's no way to use AviSynth scripts directly in Vegas like there is with Premiere, for example. But I do use scripts to create my virtual files, "dummy" avi files, which I then import into Vegas. Back when I used to save all my clips on my hard drive I opened the scripts in VirtualDub and clipped with that. :) I don't do anything fancy with AviSynth, though - I correct the colorspace and aspect ratio if needed, and combine audio and video, or all episodes of one season.

[frayadjacent]

Good to know. Thanks! The PC I might use is 64 bit. If I do decide to try out Vegas, can I give you a shout?

[violace]

Of course! :)

[beccatoria]

By importing entire episodes into the editing programming and them err, subclipping on the fly - i.e. scrubbing through source and marking in-and-out points within the wider episode, so you only insert onto the timeline the few seconds between your in and out points.

It's basically clipping on the fly, but it means I can start vidding immediately. The upside is that I often come across other stuff while I'm scrubbing through that I might not have considered otherwise. The downside is that sometimes I can't find shit for a while - it does help to do this with source you're fairly familiar with.

But clipping just...gives me ulcers. o.O

[frayadjacent]

Yeah, that makes sense. Sometimes when I'm clipping I need to basically rewatch anyway, so it's not such a big deal. In this particular instance I *do* need to rewatch, but the program I use for clipping -- MPEG StreamcliP -- doesn't do sound for MKVs. (Well, my version doesn't do it on my computer, anyway!) So the rewatching is basically a third step.

[frayadjacent]

So, my impression is this is possible with PCs and AviSynth? I vid on a mac and I'm not aware of any way to avoid clipping unless I'm vidding a movie.

Did you clip when you made "Quantum"? I ask because I'm trying to get a sense of what size project needs clipping and what doesn't -- there was about 1 season of OUaT at that time, right?

I bought my partner a refurbished PC laptop for Christmas so he could play PC games. But he never uses it! It's newer and faster than our Mac, which is 4 years old, and I've been thinking about commandeering it for vidding. If it meant I didn't have to clip as often I'd be particularly excited to do so.

[thirdblindmouse]

You can avoid clipping by vidding in Blender, which is available for all platforms! Come on over to Blender -- no clipping, easy-to-learn UI... Okay, no, I can't keep this up; I'm not that cruel.

Seriously, though, if you don't mind the other qualities of Blender, it does run quite nicely on a Mac. I've done it! (I've also tried to use Blender on the Windows machine at work, but the machine didn't seem to have codecs installed yet, and mainstream OS or not, no one on the internet could explain to me how to successfully install the damn things.)

[frayadjacent]

Well, if I comandeer my partner's computer there's a good chance I'll install Ubuntu on it. I'm not sure if I'd partition the hard drive or not in that case; I'm leaning toward not. Anyway, vidding is my main hesitation -- I want to check out your Blender tutorials first! Maybe trying it on the Mac would be a good start.

[sanguinity]

Blender is the... 3D modeling program? *is confused* I see mention here and there that it can be used for video editing, but that is less clear at the website itself.

ETA: Never mind, I found your blender tag! ...omg, I might finally get to try a non-linear editor omg omg. That can do color effects maybe? omg omg

[beccatoria]

Ooooh, interesting - I run Linux (sounds like you do to? - I'm on Ubuntu), and I use Cinelerra for vidding but I did look into Blender before I decided that no, Cinelerra would be easier to learn afterall... I would still like to learn more about it at some point, if only because its 3D modelling (okay so NOT an easy thing to learn) sounds so fascinating. I do have it installed on my laptop.

How does it stack up in terms of effects, etc.? I would eventually like to move away from Cinelerra, because as much as I've come to be competent and comfortable in it, it's not brilliantly maintained and one day I suspect it will die out. Blender is better maintained. But I'm concerned about functionality because I don't know how advanced it is as an NLE? For instance, if you don't mind my asking, does it have masking capabilities, and if so are they simple shape-masks or can you actually draw/feather/animate multipoint masks? What are its compositing capabilities like?

Also - have you taken a look at the Lightworks beta? That's another programme I'm looking at eventually moving to because again it'll be well-maintained and platform agnostic (though the Mac beta isn't out yet), as well as having a really high level of functionality. It doesn't currently have a few features I need it to have yet (though I understand they're forthcoming), so...I have an excuse to avoid learning New Stuff for a while longer... ;)

[thirdblindmouse]

It absolutely has masking capabilities. However, I absolutely cannot figure out how to work them, so I'm not sure what kind of masking it is. Which is pretty much my experience with Blender in a nutshell...

I don't know how Blender compares to Cinelerra because the last time I tried Cinelerra it managed to crash X. Granted, this was a long time ago, but I ended up in Blender not because it was superior as an editor but because it was superior as a program that didn't crash X. Now I have so many projects invested in Blender that even if this Lightworks project works out (sounds cool! I hadn't heard of it) it would be difficult to bring myself to switch.

[beccatoria]

Well, I vid on Linux - Ubuntu is my distro of choice - so I think that it is possible with avisynth and PCs, yes, but I wouldn't be a good source of help in terms of how.

But basically, yes, I load whole episodes/movies into my editing programs then subclip within the program. Harddrive space isn't a huge deal for me because the editing program simply uses reference markers that refer to the original files. So because I'm a lazy sod who doesn't convert clips into a lossless format, it's not really a quality or space issue for me.

I think there may be some crosscommunication here - I have a feeling that on Mac (which I think you are using?) many of the popular NLEs convert your clips on import into the programme into actual like, new files that take up hard drive space? Often high quality and large files? And my experience is that this is uncommon on Linux and PC where programmes tend to just reference the original file (or you can use avisynth as a workaround for this). Which obviously makes a huge amount of difference in terms of what's practically possible.

But to answer your question, no, I didn't clip for Quantum. I've never clipped for anything except video game vids because of the fundamental difference in the format where I have to cut out HOURS of gameplay which I have neither the space nor desire to keep around.

I hope that makes sense? :D?

[frayadjacent]

Yes, definitely makes sense! :) I believe that iMovie does create a new video file, but Final Cut doesn't. It also makes reference files. However, when I started vidding I was severely warned that Final Cut would be extremely unhappy if I tried to use source with a lossy codec. I actually did recently try importing clips with H264 codec and found that playback was nigh impossible, even after rendering. So I imagine that would be the case with the original source codec (x264, in this case. Not to mention that they're MKVs, which I don't believe FCP handles well, if at all.) Still, I know thingswithwings edits clips with H264 in FCP but it didn't work for me. :(

So yeah, I convert my source files -- movies or episodes -- into clips with a not-very-lossy codec (there's gotta be a word for that), where ~20 seconds of footage is on the order of 100 Mb. It would definitely take up too much HD space to do an entire season of television this way, though I might be able to get away with a movie since I've upgraded my HDD. :(

I guess current-day television is so pretty that there's no need to do the really low-compression clipping to have a shiny vid at the end! But with slightly older source such as Buffy, which I still vid, it could be an issue, even vidding on a different platform.

Are there limitations on the types of source you can load into Cinerella? Can you do VOB? MKV?

[beccatoria]

Cool - it does seem like that's why I have less HD space issues than you, yeah. Another programme you might want to look into - as I mentioned briefly in another comment, I think, is Lightworks. It's a professional editor (used for like, actual current Hollywood movies) that's getting open-sourced to Linux, Windows and Mac. The Mac beta is scheduled for later this year, and Windows and Linux are out already (although the Windows one is more advanced than the Linux one). It's functional right now, although at the moment, for Linux, the patch that lets it make reference files for h264 is busted so you have to conver/import imovie style. That said, it does this very quickly and efficiently, so if you're used to dealing with files of that size (it sounds like a similar size) that might not be an issue for you. Plus the next Linux update should fix the issue since it's already fixed in Windows. And will presumably come pre-fixed when they eventually release it for Mac.

It IS a work in progress, and currently, for instance, the only way to do masking work is to use a community-made effect which is a bit of a workaround - but the basic functionality and a fair amount of the more complex functionality is already in place.

It's also ultimately going to be Open Source but not entirely free to use. There's be a free version and a paid version. On the plus side, the paid version will be pretty cheap at £40/year which is way less than most NLEs of that level, and also I think the main thing you'll be getting for the paid-ness is extra codec support mostly for professionally used stuff like RED, but also I think for the ability to use reference files for h264 instead of converting to a new file (and again, this may not be that important to you?)

Anyway - in case you're interested - http://www.lwks.com/

As to Cinelerra, it can import a reasonable number of formats. It prefers uncompressed mpeg stuff, but it'll play fine with xvid or h264 as long as it's in .avi or .mp4 format. It's fine with .vob but won't import .mkv. That's not a huge problem though because it's the container it doesn't like, not the video stream, so if you just change the container without re-encoding the video, it'll deal with it fine.

It's a bit fussier with audio. Anything uncompressed - wav, or pcm - it's cool with. But it's fussy with other things, sometimes it'll play mp3 fine, sometimes not. It's usually cool with aac, although it tends to freak out if it's 5.1 instead of stereo.

Finally, you know, even with older stuff, I don't tend to feel like there's that much difference between using lossy and lossless stuff. Or like, what I mean is, if you rip at high enough quality you can tell the difference, it's too huge for distribution anyway, and honestly I can't even tell the difference on my laptop screen without actually pausing and specifically looking at/for the pixelation patterns. At a certain point I'm just not enough of a source obsessive to feel it's worth it, but as I said, I work with screens that can only handle 720p not true 1080p hd?

But also, stick with what is working for you, absolutely. And I have heard that clipping can be useful in rewatching. Honestly, I think my vidding would probably improve for more rewatching, but, um, lazy. ;)

[frayadjacent]

Thanks so much for the info! I will check that out!