Haha, wordsssss, I have so many of them about this show. Sorry not sorry. Comment part one!
I have little patience for manpain, as well, (uh, again, except when Xena is having it), but I was thinking about the end of "We're So Screwed", when John is deeply upset about having set off the nuclear bomb. That doesn't feel like manpain to me so much as basic empathy...it somehow seemed different to me. I'm curious what you think of that?
Yeah, for me — John cares about people, but his caring is never more important than the people themselves. If that makes sense? Which is the difference between manpain and empathy for me: when empathy starts to be about the person feeling it instead of the person the empathy is for then it’s no longer empathy and it’s manpain. Though I have to admit that I don’t remember much of “We’re So Screwed” — I mean, I remember the basics, I remember the nuclear weapon, but I don’t remember his reaction specifically. So I could be off on that one.
I don't remember DaLD or Thanks for Sharing very well -- what about those made you dislike Aeryn?
Well, I should be clear: I do really love Aeryn! It just took me a while to get to that place with her. She’s never going to be My Character in the way that Moya and Chiana are, but I do love her. The Choice is one of my favorite episodes because of Claudia Black being amazing.
But! First impressions: in DaLD she appears only as Zhaan’s hallucination and she’s very critical and mean to Zhaan, because she’s just a manifestation of Zhaan’s guilt at leaving them. So because of that, for a long time afterwards, I read her as more antagonistic towards the crew, and specifically towards Zhaan, than I think she really is. I really like Zhaan, though I don’t always love the choices that the writers made with her, so that was a hold-up for a while.
I also don’t really love the stoic warrior trope or the trappings of "strong female character" which is very much how I read her at first, largely because of the hallucination’s coldness and the millitaristic bent to her character. Aeryn’s much more than that, obviously, but both stoicism and warrior play a part in her character make up and that's not my thing, no matter if the character is male or female, so there was a bit of disinterest there. And, you know, there are reasons she shows up on a lot of people's "strong female character" lists; unfortunately many of the traits that put her on those lists tend to be the traits I'm least interested in. (D’Argo didn’t work for me in DaLD for many of the same reasons, sans "strong female character" obvs. He also seemed very stoic warrior. Though I ALSO thought that D’Argo/Zhaan was a thing based on DaLD and that confused me for a long time when it turned out to not be the case.)
Thanks for Sharing is the first full episode with the two Crichtons before the Talyn/Moya split so … that was just confusing as all hell. It make me really curious about the show, but in a very confused way! Aeryn was just so fed up with everything in that episode that, without knowing the context, she seemed like a really angry person, which fed into my thinking that she was nothing more than a fighter or a "strong female character" archetype. Going back and watching that episode she’s great and no kidding she’s fed up! But going in to the episode without the backstory or knowing the characters it was just a skewed, weird way to be introduced to everyone.
(Thanks for Sharing did help sell me on D’Argo though because there’s an exchange at the end where D’Argo is talking to Moya!Crichton after the split and he’s trying to cheer him up and it goes something like:
D’Argo: At least you have him out of your nose. [Referring to Talyn!Crichton] John: Hair D’Argo: Right, at least you have him out of your nose hair.
That exchange makes me laugh every time.)
But even once I got beyond my first impressions of Aeryn, there were things that distanced me from her. There’s the John/Aeryn focus, which I talk about above and the stoic warrior/"strong female character" … which I also just talked about … but then there's also the fact that she never really gets to have friendships with other women and she’s sort of presented as “one of the guys”. She’s never close with Zhaan, Chiana, Jool, etc, but she does have relationships with John, Crais, Pilot, even D’Argo. That makes me really sad. It’s also something that I tend to not relate to with female characters. When female characters hang out with men more than woman, particularly when other women are around and available to hang out with … it just doesn’t tend to work for me. Particularly when they eschew female companionship for romantic relationships with men I get annoyed. Again, I don’t think that’s entirely what’s going on with Aeryn & John/Aeryn but there’s just enough of it that I get frustrated. Whereas Chiana often got scenes with Jool and Sikozu, etc in addition to her romantic relationship with D’Argo and her friendship with John. Chiana still doesn’t get as much girl time with other women as I’d like, but she gets more than Aeryn and I really appreciated that. This is why, FYI, the Moya episodes of season three tend to make me happier than the Talyn episodes, even when the Talyn eps are probably objectively better. Aeryn is on a ship full of men! Crichton, Stark, Crais, Rygel, Talyn. Even though I like all of those characters, the lone women in a sea of men leaves me cold.
I think my love of Aeryn is also tempered by my love of Moya. This is probably me just holding a grudge and isn’t fair to Aeryn, but I have to admit to it being a factor. For one, Crais. I think Crais is an interesting character and I love watching him, but I HATE him. Hisssss. Even when he is “redeemed” I still think he’s a slimy evil motherfucker. Which is great to watch (less great when he’s woobified in fandom — tbh I think Crais gets the manpain that Crichton misses out on; D’Argo too), but Aeryn’s relationship with Crais and the way that she relates to him … it makes sense, it does, but … he murdered Moya’s first Pilot, he impregnated Moya against her will, and he stole her fucking baby. Hisssssss. Crais is EVIL and Aeryn’s forgiveness of him, while totally in character, gets a knee-jerk HELL NO from me. And then Aeryn’s relationship with Talyn, which is in part motherly, makes me really sad on Moya’s behalf. As does Aeryn’s relationship with Pilot. Basically: at times Aeryn was a stand-in to replace Moya because it’s easier to show relationships between human actors and puppets and CGI ships than it is between a puppet and a CGI ship or two CGI ships. But I’m just not as interested in Aeryn-as-stand-in for Moya; I’m interested in *Moya*. This was always something that was in the background for me — when people coo’ed over Aeryn’s relationship with Pilot or Talyn I never entirely understood the appeal; they were well-written relationships, but they never grabbed me. It was only when I made my Moya vid I realized just how much those relationships are developed as substitutes for Moya’s relationships with the same and that crystallized for me exactly why I didn’t connect with them as much as other people do. I’m too much a Moya girl to be into that and I don’t want Aeryn-as-substitute for anyone. I want Aeryn as Aeryn and Moya as Moya.
But despite these things Aeryn did win me over. First, because Claudia Black’s face <3<3<3. But also because Aeryn can be funny and sort of fed up with everything and I really like that. And I really like how competent she is and how kind she is — her kindness doesn’t come from Crichton, it’s hers and I appreciate that. Also she can be a snarky jerk sometimes and I appreciate that in characters/people, so long as there is a level of decency and kindness underneath. And she and John do make good partners in crime and I appreciate that as well — that more than the lovey-dovey stuff is what really makes their relationship tic for me. I love the Butch and Sundance part of their relationship, that level of trust and respect. And the few times Aeryn and Chiana do get to hang out: LOVE SO MUCH. WANT MORE. AERYN & CHIANA BFFSSSSSS, whyyyyyyy is this not the direction the show took. DDDDD: I want all the Aeryn & Chiana episodes.
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I have little patience for manpain, as well, (uh, again, except when Xena is having it), but I was thinking about the end of "We're So Screwed", when John is deeply upset about having set off the nuclear bomb. That doesn't feel like manpain to me so much as basic empathy...it somehow seemed different to me. I'm curious what you think of that?
Yeah, for me — John cares about people, but his caring is never more important than the people themselves. If that makes sense? Which is the difference between manpain and empathy for me: when empathy starts to be about the person feeling it instead of the person the empathy is for then it’s no longer empathy and it’s manpain. Though I have to admit that I don’t remember much of “We’re So Screwed” — I mean, I remember the basics, I remember the nuclear weapon, but I don’t remember his reaction specifically. So I could be off on that one.
I don't remember DaLD or Thanks for Sharing very well -- what about those made you dislike Aeryn?
Well, I should be clear: I do really love Aeryn! It just took me a while to get to that place with her. She’s never going to be My Character in the way that Moya and Chiana are, but I do love her. The Choice is one of my favorite episodes because of Claudia Black being amazing.
But! First impressions: in DaLD she appears only as Zhaan’s hallucination and she’s very critical and mean to Zhaan, because she’s just a manifestation of Zhaan’s guilt at leaving them. So because of that, for a long time afterwards, I read her as more antagonistic towards the crew, and specifically towards Zhaan, than I think she really is. I really like Zhaan, though I don’t always love the choices that the writers made with her, so that was a hold-up for a while.
I also don’t really love the stoic warrior trope or the trappings of "strong female character" which is very much how I read her at first, largely because of the hallucination’s coldness and the millitaristic bent to her character. Aeryn’s much more than that, obviously, but both stoicism and warrior play a part in her character make up and that's not my thing, no matter if the character is male or female, so there was a bit of disinterest there. And, you know, there are reasons she shows up on a lot of people's "strong female character" lists; unfortunately many of the traits that put her on those lists tend to be the traits I'm least interested in. (D’Argo didn’t work for me in DaLD for many of the same reasons, sans "strong female character" obvs. He also seemed very stoic warrior. Though I ALSO thought that D’Argo/Zhaan was a thing based on DaLD and that confused me for a long time when it turned out to not be the case.)
Thanks for Sharing is the first full episode with the two Crichtons before the Talyn/Moya split so … that was just confusing as all hell. It make me really curious about the show, but in a very confused way! Aeryn was just so fed up with everything in that episode that, without knowing the context, she seemed like a really angry person, which fed into my thinking that she was nothing more than a fighter or a "strong female character" archetype. Going back and watching that episode she’s great and no kidding she’s fed up! But going in to the episode without the backstory or knowing the characters it was just a skewed, weird way to be introduced to everyone.
(Thanks for Sharing did help sell me on D’Argo though because there’s an exchange at the end where D’Argo is talking to Moya!Crichton after the split and he’s trying to cheer him up and it goes something like:
D’Argo: At least you have him out of your nose. [Referring to Talyn!Crichton]
John: Hair
D’Argo: Right, at least you have him out of your nose hair.
That exchange makes me laugh every time.)
But even once I got beyond my first impressions of Aeryn, there were things that distanced me from her. There’s the John/Aeryn focus, which I talk about above and the stoic warrior/"strong female character" … which I also just talked about … but then there's also the fact that she never really gets to have friendships with other women and she’s sort of presented as “one of the guys”. She’s never close with Zhaan, Chiana, Jool, etc, but she does have relationships with John, Crais, Pilot, even D’Argo. That makes me really sad. It’s also something that I tend to not relate to with female characters. When female characters hang out with men more than woman, particularly when other women are around and available to hang out with … it just doesn’t tend to work for me. Particularly when they eschew female companionship for romantic relationships with men I get annoyed. Again, I don’t think that’s entirely what’s going on with Aeryn & John/Aeryn but there’s just enough of it that I get frustrated. Whereas Chiana often got scenes with Jool and Sikozu, etc in addition to her romantic relationship with D’Argo and her friendship with John. Chiana still doesn’t get as much girl time with other women as I’d like, but she gets more than Aeryn and I really appreciated that. This is why, FYI, the Moya episodes of season three tend to make me happier than the Talyn episodes, even when the Talyn eps are probably objectively better. Aeryn is on a ship full of men! Crichton, Stark, Crais, Rygel, Talyn. Even though I like all of those characters, the lone women in a sea of men leaves me cold.
I think my love of Aeryn is also tempered by my love of Moya. This is probably me just holding a grudge and isn’t fair to Aeryn, but I have to admit to it being a factor. For one, Crais. I think Crais is an interesting character and I love watching him, but I HATE him. Hisssss. Even when he is “redeemed” I still think he’s a slimy evil motherfucker. Which is great to watch (less great when he’s woobified in fandom — tbh I think Crais gets the manpain that Crichton misses out on; D’Argo too), but Aeryn’s relationship with Crais and the way that she relates to him … it makes sense, it does, but … he murdered Moya’s first Pilot, he impregnated Moya against her will, and he stole her fucking baby. Hisssssss. Crais is EVIL and Aeryn’s forgiveness of him, while totally in character, gets a knee-jerk HELL NO from me. And then Aeryn’s relationship with Talyn, which is in part motherly, makes me really sad on Moya’s behalf. As does Aeryn’s relationship with Pilot. Basically: at times Aeryn was a stand-in to replace Moya because it’s easier to show relationships between human actors and puppets and CGI ships than it is between a puppet and a CGI ship or two CGI ships. But I’m just not as interested in Aeryn-as-stand-in for Moya; I’m interested in *Moya*. This was always something that was in the background for me — when people coo’ed over Aeryn’s relationship with Pilot or Talyn I never entirely understood the appeal; they were well-written relationships, but they never grabbed me. It was only when I made my Moya vid I realized just how much those relationships are developed as substitutes for Moya’s relationships with the same and that crystallized for me exactly why I didn’t connect with them as much as other people do. I’m too much a Moya girl to be into that and I don’t want Aeryn-as-substitute for anyone. I want Aeryn as Aeryn and Moya as Moya.
But despite these things Aeryn did win me over. First, because Claudia Black’s face <3<3<3. But also because Aeryn can be funny and sort of fed up with everything and I really like that. And I really like how competent she is and how kind she is — her kindness doesn’t come from Crichton, it’s hers and I appreciate that. Also she can be a snarky jerk sometimes and I appreciate that in characters/people, so long as there is a level of decency and kindness underneath. And she and John do make good partners in crime and I appreciate that as well — that more than the lovey-dovey stuff is what really makes their relationship tic for me. I love the Butch and Sundance part of their relationship, that level of trust and respect. And the few times Aeryn and Chiana do get to hang out: LOVE SO MUCH. WANT MORE. AERYN & CHIANA BFFSSSSSS, whyyyyyyy is this not the direction the show took. DDDDD: I want all the Aeryn & Chiana episodes.